Because of its highly competitive nature, Apex Legends players are constantly dealing with one meta or another. Whether it was Season 2's Alternator+Disruptor Round meta, the dominance of the 30-30 meta, or the current "Can't See Sh*t" meta, it's something that has and will continuously cycle through the game. At the same time, metas can work out differently when someone is looking at a casual lobby, a Ranked lobby, or the high-level play of ALGS.

ALGS came to an end when Reject Winnity obtained victory in the Match Point finals. Ahead of then, however, Game ZXC sat down with Apex Legends design director Evan Nikolich to discuss the meta and off-meta plays seen at ALGS. We also discussed how the team looks at balancing and breaking up metas, the various characters used, and making decisions with high-level and casual play in mind.

The Apex Legends Meta

Q: To start, I wanted to get your thoughts on the dominance of the Caustic-Bloodhound-Bangalore meta.

A: Yeah. It's the vision obfuscation, which is highly valuable in any shooter, particularly where one life is so valuable. You want to be able to cover yourself and then, you know, the counter-play around that is going to be Bloodhound or a Digi. We're talking about taking the Digi out because it's becoming like a non-choice, Bloodhound potentially is now becoming a non-choice. We're aiming to combat some of that stuff, so we've really got to take a hard look at our meta, particularly around visual obfuscation—not to totally remove it—but we've got to figure out better ways to build counter-play around it. That's the biggest thing, it's "How do we give options?"

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Not to say we'll do this exact solution, but like with Valkyrie and her lift, we created some more counter-play around that by having the deployable balloons and spreading the power around. Valk is still very powerful, but we had a chance to look into how to fix that.

There are things we have to look into on the new meta. It's our job to make the game interesting and make decisions interesting, and when a meta locks in into a certain dominant strategy, we have to break it up.

Q: Some teams are also choosing to run Wattson rather than Caustic. I wondered what you thought about how drastic a change that was, meta-wise?

A: I wouldn't say so drastic. I mean, space control will always be important, particularly in BR and the ALGS. Tying to play the positional game is so critical, so being able to control space is super important. Taking the Watson over the Caustic, I think, is interesting. While watching, it seems like those teams are pushing the pace a bit more? Wattson providing that much harder barrier than Caustic is interesting. I don't have any hard takes on it yet, but yeah, I do like seeing some of that choice at play.

Q: How much of your job is chasing and looking at these metas?

A: Oh, a huge part of it! Basically, we can create things like the Legend classes and the Legend upgrade system, and it's really giving us more vectors and more knobs to tune and adjust to allow us to bring that further variety. Before, when we didn't have that, we were in a very strict spot where we could only adjust single abilities or adjust single weapons up and down, and now we can use the perk tree to add new perks or remove perks, create dynamic stuff there. It's about constantly trying to create more interesting choices and more different forms of expression and experimentation, so looking at the meta is a huge part of the job.

Q: You mentioned the upgrade paths, and if I am correct, this is the first playoffs since they were added. How are they performing? Are they affecting the meta the way you expected?

A: Yes, I believe so. I mean, we're basically learning in real-time right now, so we'll probably do the download after this tournament and see where things are performing. We'll see if some perks aren't performing where they probably should or if they're not interesting to where it's almost a non-choice. We got to go through the perk trees and whatnot and go "Where can we interject new and exciting stuff?" That's going to happen season over season.

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Q: Conduit is relatively new, and she's had a pretty good presence here. I was wondering what you think she brings to high-level play?

A: She's like our first character that has really leaned hard into Support, I would say. We have Lifeline with her drone and her care package, but she's very static. I think Aurora is showing some really interesting ways to play with her versus making Conduit the classic, like, "Let me sit back a little bit in the fight and help you." It's about boosting and pushing a fight even though she's Support. She's much more offensively geared when she's with the right team. It's interesting to see her at the high-level play.

I think what I find the most fascinating is how accurate they can be with her ultimate. Even as a person who has worked on the game, I am not nearly as accurate as they are. They can really close off space in unique ways, and I'm learning some things as I'm watching. I would say it's still too early to tell, but it's great to see some play and to see a new Legend starting to kind of crack that meta, yeah.

Q: ALGS is still ongoing, but so far, what would be your biggest takeaway from the meta?

A: It goes back to how we break up those dominant strategies and bring in that counterplay. The visual situation is probably the biggest thing right now and the consolidation of all this. Bangalore, I think, has a 100% or near-100% pick rate. We have to figure out how to break that up but still maintain what Bangalore is.

The Off-Meta of Apex Legends

Q: When we spoke previously, you mentioned how you were interested in seeing what was played off-meta. I was curious if anything had caught your eye that's been off-meta?

A: I love seeing a few Ramparts coming out? I actually really personally enjoy playing Rampart in the live game. I like playing characters where I can control my cover and its placement, and I think Newcastle is another one of those. But seeing Rampart, seeing her get used as a character that's not so much known for mobility but more stationary placement, I think that's interesting to see.

Q: Alongside her, Gibraltar and Newcastle seem to be some of the rarest Legends to see. What do you think these more defensive Legends bring to high-level play that maybe others don't?

A: I mean, with the defensive Legends, it's about space. Controlling space. They're kind of in the same territory as a Watson or as a Caustic, but Wattson and Caustic are clearly proven to be more effective at controlling that space. How do we give them the opportunity to also make Legends like Newcastle and Gibraltar unique? It'll be interesting to see after this patch on Tuesday how these adjustments change things.

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With Rampart, we haven't touched that much, but yeah. There are things we think like, "What can we do to make her more interesting?" I wouldn't say to "counter Caustic," but "What is an interesting choice compared to Caustic?"

Q: Do you think Caustic and Wattson are probably the reason why these other Legends are maybe not picked more often?

A: Yeah, for sure. Again, it comes down to who is the most effective Legend at controlling space and cutting off the map, and, you know, that's what's been causing Caustic to be particularly picked. To initiate on a Caustic is to blow the gas, which constructs vision and causes a chain effect.

Q: There are a lot fewer Wraiths and Octanes players in high-level play than in regular lobbies. I was wondering if you could maybe dive into why.

A: These guys in ALGS put such a value on space control, so being able to obstruct vision or lock down a space is super valuable. These guys are very focused on getting kills but also securing placement in the win. Versus our public and our ranked lobbies, I think the mindset of the player in pubs and ranked lobbies is much more aggression-focused, much more focused on just securing kills. You get Octane and Wraith there, and with Octane in particular, having a speed boost is fun. It's exciting, it gets you in and out, and you can control your situation by yourself where you're not maybe as reliant on your teammates, though at the cost of your health. The regenerative health always attracts new players. I think a newer or more amateur player sees things like that, it's just such an obvious power to them that they will latch onto it, where it's less difficult compared to being able to understand controlling space and controlling cover and things of that nature, like Newcastle, a much higher skill level Legend.

Q: When you're looking at these high-level plays and you're trying to balance a game for high-level play and also your average lobby, how does that impact your design choices?

A: Yeah, we don't ever want to chop down the top of the mountain. We want to respect that high-level play, and from there, it's focusing on how that filters down to the standard player. In our amateur lobbies, actual spatial control is really important. You don't see a lot of Caustics and a lot of Wattsons, like you do, but not like to the point you see it during ALGS. I'm not saying we want to become totally dominant in that direction, but how do we incentivize players and how we teach players the value of these Legends? I think getting more people playing these Legends and actually shifting them around shows more of the meta.

I wouldn't say we explicitly try to think "casual versus pro," but it's more "How do we build the best competitive game?" Then how do we make sure that is accessible and usable to the standard live game player? You could argue about why Control characters, vision obstruction, and lockdown characters are not as possibly well-used, and how can we help players understand the value better than the casual glance at the game?

Designing for Impact

Q: Could I get your words on Respawn's Design for Impact tactic?

A: Yeah. The big thing is when we drop a new Legend or put a new feature in it, it's like you can't miss it, it's a huge draw, and it's very disruptive to the game. It breaks up metas and things of that nature. With Alter, from the very beginning, before she even had a name, when she was just a standard, basic rig, we had to think about what breaching looks like in Apex.

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It's not set like in Rainbow Six or putting a charge on a door, you know? It's like blinking through space. In the first iteration of these powers, you could go through a mountain. You could do it. It was crazy fun. I remember the first playtest where we were on Moon, and then I couldn't portal through a giant wall. I mean, I understood that, but it had been conditioned at that point that I could do it.

It's a big thing with her for countering some of those Controller characters. It'd be interesting to see if she is effective at countering Caustic. I don't know. Is she probably more effective at countering Wattson's fences? Probably, but it's about being able to provide that breaching ability, but then also that ability, while that is the focus, flips around to a really powerful escape ability.

In playtesting, people did really unique things like setting up traps. I remember I was trying to chase somebody, I saw an Alter portal, and I jumped through. All of a sudden, I was taking a lot of damage. I was like, "I have got to get back!" I totally felt bamboozled. She's also great for teamplay like her Ult of being able to portal back or reset the fight, which I think is very powerful. She's definitely more on the aggression side.

Q: How do you foresee her impacting the high-level play or even just the standard lobby?

A: It's about those really tough lockdown spaces. Like Gibraltar back in the earlier days provided with being able to initiate the Mortar Strike and get people out. So, how does she help us, how does she help teams push and then disrupt people, get them out, and knock them out of their space? And then, what are the counter-plays that are going to be created around preventing that breaching stuff? I'm really curious, and I think, even at the casual level, you'll see a lot of escape and also aggression.

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